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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:33 am 
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in optical illusions we are fooled by our physical eyes. Therefore: why would we trust our individual perceptions to be True ones?

I just had a thought about this. Isn't it really the mind being tricked? Doesn't the mind sometimes project strange things for us to see? After all, illusions are often due to stress being placed upon the brain. Be it physical or mental stress, the result is still generally the same. So, how can we not attribute the individual perceptions to be true? Isn't "truth" as equally susceptible to one's opinion and/or point of view? What my be true to you isn't true for me. Our individual interpretations of our perceptions define what we see as truth.

There are many levels of "reality" even within our conventional reality - which might leave open the possibility that there are also other levels of Reality, perhaps even truer levels of a truer Reality ... ?

Here we might be able to agree on the possibility of multiple realities. The Chaos Theory points to a myriad of possibilities in our daily world. Each of which is, in itself, a reality once established. But that is merely dealing with us, people, the everyday mundane. I'm a little hesitant to accept the idea of multiple Universe's with alternate realities. That one seems like a cover for the bigger question of "why are we here??".

However, this begs a question that I've been pondering for some time - If there are multiple realities in our world and Universe, what happens when one is realized and the others are not? Do they cease to exist, or do they get recycled into future events?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:38 am 
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The eyes of the soul - or what I would call the soul.

Interesting. The soul's eyes. I don't think I've ever heard of this before. I've heard of the old saying "The eyes are the windows to the soul", or something along those lines. It seems to me that the soul has to use us to see for itself so that it may interpret the world in which it exists. Therefore, our eyes are the soul's eyes.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:16 am 
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in optical illusions we are fooled by our physical eyes. Therefore: why would we trust our individual perceptions to be True ones?

I just had a thought about this. Isn't it really the mind being tricked? Doesn't the mind sometimes project strange things for us to see? After all, illusions are often due to stress being placed upon the brain. Be it physical or mental stress, the result is still generally the same. So, how can we not attribute the individual perceptions to be true? Isn't "truth" as equally susceptible to one's opinion and/or point of view? What my be true to you isn't true for me. Our individual interpretations of our perceptions define what we see as truth. Good evening, Anubis. It is the mind being tricked - and our perceptions are not to be always trusted. Not just by optical illusions: we are just as fooled by the material body we see in the mirror ... or the chair we are sitting in. On the spiritual Path - Truth is beyond the perceptions.

If we take the physical chair apart: where is the chair? The chair is made up of wood taken from a tree or trees, put together by workmen. Where did the tree come from? The tree is dependent on other factors for its existence: a seed, rain, food etc. Nothing in form inherently exists. Therefore: how could anything in form have Ultimate Reality?

Isn't "truth" as equally susceptible to one's opinion and/or point of view? What my be true to you isn't true for me. Our individual interpretations of our perceptions define what we see as truth.

Hmm ... Even within our conventional reality there are certain truths that are not dependent on our individual perceptions. These truths of the "material" universe are given to all those incarnate in a human vehicle; for instance, all humans would say the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, that it gives off heat, that it burns our eyes if we look at it etc.

There are certain laws of this physical universe that do not change. There are shared perceptions: you and I would agree that we are speaking on this thread together, for instance. All humans would call a chair a "chair" - we wouldn't mistake it for an elephant (unless we were hallucinating).

But I might think the chair was a beautiful one; you might think it ugly. Someone might say it was too small, someone else might say it was too large. So there are many levels of individual perception, even within our conventional, "material" reality ...

But these indivual perceptions do not change the fact that within our conventional reality - a chair is a chair!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:22 am 
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The eyes of the soul - or what I would call the soul.

Interesting. The soul's eyes. I don't think I've ever heard of this before. I've heard of the old saying "The eyes are the windows to the soul", or something along those lines. It seems to me that the soul has to use us to see for itself so that it may interpret the world in which it exists. Therefore, our eyes are the soul's eyes.

Yes, I would say the soul uses the physical eyes in order to experience the world ... But I would not confuse the two, call them one and the same. If you learn to meditate, I think you will experience the difference.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:26 am 
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There are many levels of "reality" even within our conventional reality - which might leave open the possibility that there are also other levels of Reality, perhaps even truer levels of a truer Reality ... ?

Here we might be able to agree on the possibility of multiple realities. The Chaos Theory points to a myriad of possibilities in our daily world. Each of which is, in itself, a reality once established. But that is merely dealing with us, people, the everyday mundane. I'm a little hesitant to accept the idea of multiple Universe's with alternate realities. That one seems like a cover for the bigger question of "why are we here??".

However, this begs a question that I've been pondering for some time - If there are multiple realities in our world and Universe, what happens when one is realized and the others are not? Do they cease to exist, or do they get recycled into future events?


I am not very familiar with the chaos theory, all I know about it is what you yourself have written earlier on this thread. Are all these alternate realities of the chaos theory potentialities within our material universe?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:57 am 
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It is the mind being tricked - and our perceptions are not to be always trusted.

True enough.

On the spiritual Path - Truth is beyond the perceptions.

But what is beyond the truth once you perceive it?? As I said before, truth is based on perception, 100%. Whether or not the truth is made false right away, or in twenty years time, the fact is, truth is defined, most often, in the moment based on perceptions of the available information. The spiritual path is no different because each person is going to have their own perception on the subject and will form their own truth. The perception of truth is what leads to differing opinions. It is what is driving this very discussion.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:06 am 
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If we take the physical chair apart: where is the chair? The chair is made up of wood taken from a tree or trees, put together by workmen. Where did the tree come from? The tree is dependent on other factors for its existence: a seed, rain, food etc. Nothing in form inherently exists. Therefore: how could anything in form have Ultimate Reality?

Everything in form can have ultimate reality because it is all derived from a single source. If you take every single thing in the Universe down to is simplest form, you will discover that it all comes from one place in time. Everything from the chair I'm sitting in to the keyboard I'm using to type this post, it is all born of the same thing, matter. The only thing that allows us to differentiate between any two objects in our world is the form in which that matter is presented to us. But, of course, I see what you mean when you ask how anything can have ultimate reality if it does not inherently exist on its own. A car doesn't just grow on a tree, we make them.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:11 am 
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But these indivual perceptions do not change the fact that within our conventional reality - a chair is a chair!

True. But, as you say, someone might perceive the chair to be ugly while someone else perceives it to be beautiful. To each individual, that is their respective truth on what that chair is. They agree that it is indeed a chair, but beyond that, their perception defines what kind of chair it is.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:21 am 
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I am not very familiar with the chaos theory, all I know about it is what you yourself have written earlier on this thread. Are all these alternate realities of the chaos theory potentialities within our material universe?

Yes. Every alternate reality is a potential reality. However, each reality relies on a very sensitive web of actions. So sensitive, in fact, that if even the slightest thing is put out of place or altered, that reality can no longer be realized and is subsequently subverted by the reality closest to it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:49 pm 
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Hi Anubis:

[quote="Anubis"][b]your two statements contradict eachother dear Anubis.[/b]

I see that now. I would like to amend that statement now by saying that we all do experience a world exterior of us, but each of our perceptions on it lead to the often differing opinions of what is and isn't real.

[b]But QM has shown us, yes albeit only for the sub-atomic particles, that there is NO THING THERE before the "measurement."[/b]

Hello, Avery!!

Well, the one probelm I have with quantum mehcanics on that level is, if there is nothing there to measure, why measure? And why is that only after we measure is there something there that can be measured and discussed? It seems to me that the idea of meausring nothing in the hopes of proving something is rather convoluted.[/quote]


In the QM model, transposed to our experience, every moment we are taking a "measurement," in or from which I and my world of experience arise. QM, as a model, simply says that things, properties, space, time, experience, arise with the measurements. It does not say we create reality. In spiritual science, the appearance of forms, objects, sense of I, etc. are not as real as the field of observation, the background intelligence. the measurement and measuring and thing presupposes the background reality. Because it is not a thing, it is not nothing. it is more real than things: it is isness itself. We can say that all things are relativizations of that background reality, or we can say that no thing is really able to capture it. As figaro is saying, we can come to this through reasoning, or in a more satisfying way, we can shift our attention from the field of objects to the non object background, reality, awareness itself in meditation.

much peace from Panama. Avery


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:54 pm 
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Hi Anubis:

time for one more response, till later:

[quote="Anubis"][b]What we call inner and outer are all contents: of What? Find that out, sense that which does not change among the changing contents, and we have moved from the appearances to the reality.[/b]

But the contents of the inner and outer are constantly changing. Our thoughts are constantly moving, even as we sleep. Our planet is continually evolving. Everything is in constant motion, ever changing. That is the true reality of the situation.[/quote]

Yes, that part you have got very good: the contents are all changing: inner thoughts, images sense of self and outer appearances too. But Max Plank made a very astute comment: to say that everything is relative, or changing, presupposes something that is not changing, something not relative. If we look without bias, or get quiet, we find something in us which has not changed since we can remember: what do I have right now, that it unchanging since the earliest memory, every moment/// It is hidden in the sense of being, of "I am" ness. to be aware of changing contents, assumes the awareness itself. This is the hint to follow. a.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:57 pm 
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On the spiritual Path - Truth is beyond the perceptions.

But what is beyond the truth once you perceive it?? As I said before, truth is based on perception, 100%. Whether or not the truth is made false right away, or in twenty years time, the fact is, truth is defined, most often, in the moment based on perceptions of the available information. The spiritual path is no different because each person is going to have their own perception on the subject and will form their own truth. The perception of truth is what leads to differing opinions. It is what is driving this very discussion. Good afternoon dear Anubis! I must admit that I do admire the way your mind works - you were given a good vehicle for your life on earth! You have made some very good, valid points - and valuable ones. Ones humanity should heed; so many wars on this poor earth are the result of "religious" differences and perceptions and interpretations of Truth. Yes, the perception of truth can vary from person to person. But as I tried to explain in my former posts: that is only one level of perception. And that level of perception has to do with conventional truths and conventional, material reality. (I would also put many spiritual "visions" in this category; visions in which the seeker's personal perceptions are more expressing themselves through the imagination, are the result of the ego.)

However, there are Truths which lie beyond our personal, individual perceptions. Those Truths are agreed upon by the true Mystics of every religion: 1. We are not merely the physical body or physical brain with its myriad perceptions and ideas 2. the material world is not Ultimate Reality. And when I speak of Truth, with a captial "T": I am referring to those two Truths.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:06 pm 
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The spiritual path is no different because each person is going to have their own perception on the subject and will form their own truth. The perception of truth is what leads to differing opinions. It is what is driving this very discussion.

And I think it is essential that each person form their own truths on the spiritual path, i.e. find their own path. Our Lady (The Madonna), in Medjugorje, Yugoslavia, told the child visionaries there that we should all pick a Path - and then do our very best to follow it. That we should lead kind, simple lives - and that we should respect all religions. For me, Her Words would also apply to those who cannot believe in a "God" per se. The Buddhists do not believe in a "God": and yet Our Lady Herself has told us to respect their religion.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:09 pm 
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Our Lady also told the visionaries that God exists - and it does not matter what humans call Him (or, I suppose, what humans do not call Him); human definitions do not alter God. Therefore we should not argue about our definitions of Him, but rather live in Peace.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:16 pm 
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Unfortunately, I have other tasks to complete and must now quit this fine discussion. Thank you dear Avery and Anubis for your posts.


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