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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 4:29 pm 
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Notebooks category twenty-one, Mentalism:

From chapter 5: THE KEY TO THE SPIRITUAL WORLD

Perceive these two things now: the dreamlike character of life in the world, and the illusory character of the personal ego. Hence the need of the "What am I?" enquiry, that the illusion of the ego may be dispelled. When you can see these things clearly, then you may be still and undisturbed, unentangled, and unillusioned amid the struggle of life. You will be wise, free, impervious to the petty persecution of men - their lies, malice, and injuries - for being no longer identified with the personality, you are no longer their target.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:26 am 
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I assume the quote you give was written by the Sage Paul Brunton?


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 Post subject: yes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:46 pm 
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It is from the Sage Paul Brunton. I received it from the Yahoo Groups email from Wisdoms Goldenrod Philosophic Foundation which is the guardian of an extensive library of spiritual and mystical texts.


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 Post subject: PB Quote cont.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:31 am 
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It is a beautiful quote Marshall. In the Notebooks, Brunton's quotes are not dated, so we do not know when he wrote this quote.

But later in life he would object to the Eastern idea of the world as being "dreamlike" and "illusion". If this world is only an illusion - then why are we here on earth? Brunton believed that we incarnate both to learn, evolve - and to help others.

However, Brunton would continue to maintain that the ego was illusionary; and as long as we insist on identifying with the ego, the personality (which includes our thoughts and emotions), we would both suffer and cause suffering in the lives of others.


Last edited by figaro on Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:51 am 
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Brunton would continue to maintain that as long as we insist on identifying with the ego, the personality (which includes our thoughts and emotions), we would both suffer and cause suffering in the lives of others.

But how can one go about not identifying with the ego?? The ego is all about one's self, doing what is good for you. This urge is inextricably linked to instinct, which is equally connected to impulse. So, going on this, the ego is an extension of our instinct to do the best for ourselves, and therefore, almost entirely impossible to escape so long as we retain our humanity.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:11 pm 
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Hi Anubis, My thoughts on your question...

We are given an ego while we're in the body to exist in and experience the world, and it is the ego's job to preserve itself. But there is a difference between allowing the ego to play this role and identifying with the ego. Identifying with the ego means that one looks to all their thoughts, feelings, emotions, beliefs, senses, etc. as what is real, as who we are, instead of our Source--our true selves. We can't grow and evolve if we limit ourselves to this small part of our mind. The ego is selfish and will do whatever it can to preserve itself, at the expense of what is truly good for ourselves, for those around us, and for the world.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:10 am 
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Hello, paelaf!!

We can't grow and evolve if we limit ourselves to this small part of our mind.

I'd argue that it is quite the opposite. Humanity as a species has grown to the point that it is because of the ego, because of our belief that we are the dominant species (which is true in almost every way beyond our obvious numerical superiority.). It is because we think we can overcome any obstacle through our own self glorification of the human spirit (which is essentially the ego incognito) that we have managed to advance so in our world. And, likewise, the ego, though it can be attributed to some of the greatest achievements of mankind, can also cause pain and suffering (another key "ingredient" in evolution and/or growth.). How are we to grow without pain or suffering? Without the ability to make mistakes and then, later, learn from them? The ego plays a key role in that process and is, therefore, unequivocally linked to evolution and growth.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:31 am 
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Identifying with the ego means that one looks to all their thoughts, feelings, emotions, beliefs, senses, etc. as what is real, as who we are, instead of our Source--our true selves.

And doesn't the ego perfectly define humanity?? We can look to our true selves, but I can almost guarantee that we will see exactly what we fight to rid ourselves of, and that is our primal selves. Instinct will continually drive every human action from now until the end of time. It is a part of us that is inescapable. At our core, man is a selfish being, and no matter how many steps we take toward spiritual avenues, we will never escape the urge to do what we feel will benefit ourselves (as the very action of taking steps to rid ourselves of certain qualities is, in itself, an action of selfish nature.). I feel this is true for every living being and/or sentient race (should any exist beyond our scope of vision.). Primeval instinct is a law of the Universe. The Universe and all it's contents were created in chaos, so shall they exist and end in chaos.

The ego is selfish and will do whatever it can to preserve itself, at the expense of what is truly good for ourselves, for those around us, and for the world.

True enough. But as I alluded to in my above post, the selfish nature of the ego can also give rise to marvelous revelations and discoveries. Imagine a world where Galileo blindly believed that the Earth was the center of the Universe and gave no thought to the potential arrogance of overturning that belief and opening our eyes to a larger view of our existence.


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 Post subject: Hello Anubis!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:43 am 
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because of our belief that we are the dominant species (which is true in almost every way beyond our obvious numerical superiority.). Hmm ... is this true of bugs? I would say they outnumber us by quite a bit ...

We can look to our true selves, but I can almost guarantee that we will see exactly what we fight to rid ourselves of, and that is our primal selves. This is not true in our meditations, or in deep prayer - and is one reason we meditate and enter deep prayer.

Instinct will continually drive every human action from now until the end of time. It is a part of us that is inescapable. At our core, man is a selfish being, and no matter how many steps we take toward spiritual avenues, we will never escape the urge to do what we feel will benefit ourselves (as the very action of taking steps to rid ourselves of certain qualities is, in itself, an action of selfish nature.). With prayer and meditation, and by using philosophy - we can free ourselves of the grip of the ego. By philosophy here I mean knowing that we are more than our instincts, more than our thoughts and emotions. You might want to read "Standing in Your Own Way" by Anthony Damiani, Larson Publications. I would be happy to discuss it with you.


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 Post subject: Hello paelaf!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:48 am 
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We are given an ego while we're in the body to exist in and experience the world, and it is the ego's job to preserve itself. But there is a difference between allowing the ego to play this role and identifying with the ego. Identifying with the ego means that one looks to all their thoughts, feelings, emotions, beliefs, senses, etc. as what is real, as who we are, instead of our Source--our true selves. Beautifully stated, paelaf.


Last edited by figaro on Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Chaos?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:55 am 
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Primeval instinct is a law of the Universe. The Universe and all it's contents were created in chaos, so shall they exist and end in chaos.

Then, Anubis, how would you explain the exquisite order of the universe? The planets in their orbs, the crystal lattices found in Nature, the wonder of Life itself and the unfathomable physical order within every being etc

In my view Divine Ideas guide not only our physical existence, but every aspect of our existence.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:01 am 
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Hmm ... is this true of bugs? I would say they outnumber us by quite a bit ...

True. But even so, humans are a force of over 6 billion (and rising). Bugs may outnumber us, however, they have not had as fundamental an impact on our planet as we have. As a species, mankind has grown to become a living force of nature, more so than any other living creature on the planet.

With prayer and meditation, and by using philosophy - we can free ourselves of the grip of the ego. By philosophy here I mean knowing that we are more than our instincts, more than our thoughts and emotions.

Ah, I see where we tend to differ on this issue. I tend to follow Nietzsche's ideas on what people are at their core. Nietzsche believed that every being wanted power and that the will to live was only a subsidiary goal (necessary only to promote their gaining of more power.). He argued this case by pointing out the obvious fact that humans have been shown to be willing to risk their own lives for power -i.e. - war and competitive fighting. He went further to say that such people (as exemplified by the ancient warriors of Greece) did not desire to merely live, but instead sought power, glory and greatness. Nietzsche also went further and applied his "Will to Power" philosophy to Platonism (which states that all people seek to be one with the "good" or, in the case of neo-Platonism, God.). I agree with those ideals to a point. I do agree that beings are inherently power hungry at heart and seek to empower themselves through whatever avenue best suits their desire (whether that avenue be spiritual or physical.). However, I also believe that the will to live also plays a factor and is unaffected by the will for power as certain instances (such as viewed in nature) can be construed as Darwin's "Survival of the Fittest" ideal. On the basic level, I believe that all beings are ingrained with a deep primeval will to live. However, I think this will to live slowly transforms into Nietzsche's "Will to Power" as the being deepens it's understanding of it's surroundings and learns how to logically rationalize it's existence with cognitive thought. And the root of all human emotions, such as described above, is the ego. That's why I feel the ego is essential, and inextricably linked, to human evolution, not only as a species, but as individuals.


Last edited by Anubis on Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:03 am 
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Then, Anubis, how would you explain the exquisite order of the universe? The planets in their orbs, the crystal lattices found in Nature, the wonder of Life itself and the unfathomable physical order within every being etc

In my view Divine Ideas guide not only our physical existence, but every aspect of our existence.


I'm currently reading a paper on the ideas behind Chaos Theory. Once I am finished reading it, I will no doubt have a much deeper answer for you on this question.

And I shall scour my local library for "Standing in Your own Way". I would really like to read it to attempt to gain a further understanding of our discussion.


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 Post subject: Good morning, Anubis!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:31 am 
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And the root of all human emotions, such as described above, is the ego. That's why I feel the ego is essential, and inextricably linked, to human evolution, not only as a species, but as individuals.

Good morning, Anubis! Well, I agree that we need some percentage of ego in order to perceive the world - the ego is supposed to be the vehicle for the soul. I also would say that over the centuries our thinking has clarified itself, evolved. But then again, thinking is not Wisdom.

Also: I find it hard to juxtapose your statement above with your tag lines (written by Steven Hawkings) : I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image. I would hardly call destruction evolution ...


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 Post subject: Ah, Nietzsche
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:39 am 
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I tend to follow Nietzsche's ideas on what people are at their core. Nietzsche believed that every being wanted power and that the will to live was only a subsidiary goal. Hello again, Anubis. Thank you for the clarity of your views and ideas. However: Nietzsche's conception of what man is at core is not the Idea of Man in the Divine Mind. Nietzsche is perhaps accurately desribing the human ego - which is not our true Self. Tell me, Anubis: do you think that you are merely your thoughts and emotions? The very fact that we say: "I had a thought" seems to indicate that we are something larger than our thoughts ...


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